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lumi · 30-12-2006

A few days ago, Got Frag looked at the Counter-Strike: Source BETA. Got Frag is one of the largest esports websites out there, and most of us know that competitive players do two things: 1) play well, 2) notice tiny changes (when, sometimes, they're not even there!). Although the article had an upbeat tone and gave CS: Source a fair shot, Valve has gone out of its way to counter some of the misinformation contained in the article as to make sure the competitive community is calm and even-headed when they start playing the BETA of CS: Source in just a few short hours.

Since Counter-Strike: Source (info section) is such a large leap from CS 1.6, you can't blame anyone for trying to spot changes. Two changes mentioned in Got Frag's article were quickly debunked by Jess Cliffe.

» The running speed in Counter-Strike: Source is the exact same as it was in 1.6. "The code is the same and we have physically timed it to be sure," said Jess Cliffe in a CS-Nation comments thread.

» While the article said the PARA was better due to "[recoil] changes," Jess has said that only the rate of fire has increased on the PARA.

However, mentioned in passing on the article's second page is another change in recoil. Although the author seemed to have more issue with the crosshair than the actual weapon performance, Valve decided that it would be prudent to conduct their own tests to determine if the recoil system has changed sigificantly. Martin Otten, one of Valve's network programmers and the original developer of HLTV, conducted internal tests with a focus on the recoil.

From: Martin Otten

To: Mike Booth; Jess Cliffe; Robin Walker; Adrian Finol; Gabe Newell;

Subject: RE: CS:S impressions on Gotfrag

I collected some data. I wrote some bullet stats code and added the same code to Source & GoldSrc CS (rizzuh: GoldSrc is 1.6). The code takes the first shot of a weapon as reference and measures for each following shot the distance and time delta. I tested the M4A1, AK47 & MP5, fired 4 [magazines] each in 15 shot bursts (standing, not moving).

Click here to see some of the raw data sent to CS-Nation.

If you look at the graphs, it's pretty amazing how close they are, except that the AK has a different start value, it's more accurate in Source. One thing is that the weapons have different firing rates in full auto mode. Sometimes Source is faster ( M4A1, MP5), sometimes GoldSrc(AK47), the error is about 7%. I assume that's because of our fixed time tick system.

So, the conclusion of this test is, that if behavior of these weapons is different in Source, it's probably not their recoil or accuracy. ...

MP5
Standing Still

GoldSrc is Counter-Strike 1.6, while Source (pink) is naturally Counter-Strike: Source.

The MP5, if anything, seems to have less recoil this time around.

Running

It seems as if the MP5 has improved just a tad over the CS 1.6 version of the weapon.

M4A1
Standing Still

GoldSrc is Counter-Strike 1.6, while Source (pink) is naturally Counter-Strike: Source.

The maximum difference in deviation is 10.9% at shot six, but almost all of the other shots deviate with an insignificant difference.

Running

Here we see that running while firing weapons is not a good idea!

AK47
Standing Still

GoldSrc is Counter-Strike 1.6, while Source (pink) is naturally Counter-Strike: Source.

Finally, a real change. The AK-47 starts off more accurate, with its second and third bullets matching the recoil of the M4A1. We'll see how this balance change plays out, in-game. The recoil pattern, however, is almost the same.

Running

Once again, today's lesson is to not run around while firing guns!

Conclusion
Valve has released all of their data in an Excel spreadsheet (which requires Excel or the free Excel viewer), so everyone can make up their own minds regarding CS: Source.

We love our friends in the competitive community — and I personally think matches and scrims are very exciting games of CS — but sometimes they tend to notice change where there isn't any. Based on the numbers I see in the spreadsheet , I personally believe that any "change" in the CS recoil from 1.6 to Source is so minute that it would be almost impossible to notice it in-game. However, the same numbers point to the AK47 and M4A1 being made more equals in the initial burst of fire.

For good reason, Got Frag talks more about the crosshair than the actual recoil. As Valve has shown above, the recoil is basically unchanged. However, the crosshair's dynamics seemed to have changed a bit since CS 1.6, and these changes are likely the cause of any major perceived recoil changes made to the game.

When firing a weapon in Counter-Strike 1.6, your crosshair will expand to represent the loss of control and recoil. The longer you continue firing, the further it expands until it reaches a maximum point of expansion. When you cease firing, your crosshair will shrink back to its normal size, allowing you to easily line up another target in your crosshair and begin firing again. This is also true to Counter-Strike: Source, but with a slight difference. In CS: Source, your crosshair does not smoothly transition back to its original size, instead it seems to shrink back in phases, one size at a time. This process takes a couple seconds longer than CS 1.6, making recoil harder to control.

A popular tactic for firing automatic weapons in Counter-Strike is to burst-fire several shots, let your recoil settle down, and then burst-fire several more. Since the crosshair in CS: Source settles down slower, it is harder to accurately line up your target for a another burst. Perhaps this is a change not intended by Valve that will be looked into as the BETA progresses.

article: cs:s weapon tests

author: rizzuh
posted: august 17th, 2004

It's a pretty old article I found, but I found it interesting to read.

http://www.csnation.net/articles.php/article_201/

I personally didn't realize 1.6 vs source recoil was that similar...

30-12-2006	#1 (permalink)
lumi Monster Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Melbourne Age: 18 Posts: 3,406 Rep Power: 322	Interesting weapon spray analysis A few days ago, Got Frag looked at the Counter-Strike: Source BETA. Got Frag is one of the largest esports websites out there, and most of us know that competitive players do two things: 1) play well, 2) notice tiny changes (when, sometimes, they're not even there!). Although the article had an upbeat tone and gave CS: Source a fair shot, Valve has gone out of its way to counter some of the misinformation contained in the article as to make sure the competitive community is calm and even-headed when they start playing the BETA of CS: Source in just a few short hours. Since Counter-Strike: Source (info section) is such a large leap from CS 1.6, you can't blame anyone for trying to spot changes. Two changes mentioned in Got Frag's article were quickly debunked by Jess Cliffe. » The running speed in Counter-Strike: Source is the exact same as it was in 1.6. "The code is the same and we have physically timed it to be sure," said Jess Cliffe in a CS-Nation comments thread. » While the article said the PARA was better due to "[recoil] changes," Jess has said that only the rate of fire has increased on the PARA. However, mentioned in passing on the article's second page is another change in recoil. Although the author seemed to have more issue with the crosshair than the actual weapon performance, Valve decided that it would be prudent to conduct their own tests to determine if the recoil system has changed sigificantly. Martin Otten, one of Valve's network programmers and the original developer of HLTV, conducted internal tests with a focus on the recoil. From: Martin Otten To: Mike Booth; Jess Cliffe; Robin Walker; Adrian Finol; Gabe Newell; Subject: RE: CS:S impressions on Gotfrag I collected some data. I wrote some bullet stats code and added the same code to Source & GoldSrc CS (rizzuh: GoldSrc is 1.6). The code takes the first shot of a weapon as reference and measures for each following shot the distance and time delta. I tested the M4A1, AK47 & MP5, fired 4 [magazines] each in 15 shot bursts (standing, not moving). Click here to see some of the raw data sent to CS-Nation. If you look at the graphs, it's pretty amazing how close they are, except that the AK has a different start value, it's more accurate in Source. One thing is that the weapons have different firing rates in full auto mode. Sometimes Source is faster ( M4A1, MP5), sometimes GoldSrc(AK47), the error is about 7%. I assume that's because of our fixed time tick system. So, the conclusion of this test is, that if behavior of these weapons is different in Source, it's probably not their recoil or accuracy. ... MP5 Standing Still GoldSrc is Counter-Strike 1.6, while Source (pink) is naturally Counter-Strike: Source. The MP5, if anything, seems to have less recoil this time around. Running It seems as if the MP5 has improved just a tad over the CS 1.6 version of the weapon. M4A1 Standing Still GoldSrc is Counter-Strike 1.6, while Source (pink) is naturally Counter-Strike: Source. The maximum difference in deviation is 10.9% at shot six, but almost all of the other shots deviate with an insignificant difference. Running Here we see that running while firing weapons is not a good idea! AK47 Standing Still GoldSrc is Counter-Strike 1.6, while Source (pink) is naturally Counter-Strike: Source. Finally, a real change. The AK-47 starts off more accurate, with its second and third bullets matching the recoil of the M4A1. We'll see how this balance change plays out, in-game. The recoil pattern, however, is almost the same. Running Once again, today's lesson is to not run around while firing guns! Conclusion Valve has released all of their data in an Excel spreadsheet (which requires Excel or the free Excel viewer), so everyone can make up their own minds regarding CS: Source. We love our friends in the competitive community — and I personally think matches and scrims are very exciting games of CS — but sometimes they tend to notice change where there isn't any. Based on the numbers I see in the spreadsheet , I personally believe that any "change" in the CS recoil from 1.6 to Source is so minute that it would be almost impossible to notice it in-game. However, the same numbers point to the AK47 and M4A1 being made more equals in the initial burst of fire. For good reason, Got Frag talks more about the crosshair than the actual recoil. As Valve has shown above, the recoil is basically unchanged. However, the crosshair's dynamics seemed to have changed a bit since CS 1.6, and these changes are likely the cause of any major perceived recoil changes made to the game. When firing a weapon in Counter-Strike 1.6, your crosshair will expand to represent the loss of control and recoil. The longer you continue firing, the further it expands until it reaches a maximum point of expansion. When you cease firing, your crosshair will shrink back to its normal size, allowing you to easily line up another target in your crosshair and begin firing again. This is also true to Counter-Strike: Source, but with a slight difference. In CS: Source, your crosshair does not smoothly transition back to its original size, instead it seems to shrink back in phases, one size at a time. This process takes a couple seconds longer than CS 1.6, making recoil harder to control. A popular tactic for firing automatic weapons in Counter-Strike is to burst-fire several shots, let your recoil settle down, and then burst-fire several more. Since the crosshair in CS: Source settles down slower, it is harder to accurately line up your target for a another burst. Perhaps this is a change not intended by Valve that will be looked into as the BETA progresses. article: cs:s weapon tests author: rizzuh posted: august 17th, 2004 It's a pretty old article I found, but I found it interesting to read. http://www.csnation.net/articles.php/article_201/ I personally didn't realize 1.6 vs source recoil was that similar... __________________ Play .OGG Last edited by Hybrid; 12-07-2007 at 05:21 PM.